tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post5385712048268171375..comments2023-10-28T09:17:35.685-04:00Comments on Butterfly House: My Own History with W2KJeff Caglehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-33544311149345638822009-03-07T09:22:00.000-05:002009-03-07T09:22:00.000-05:00Maybe the place for this is over at oldlife.org. ...Maybe the place for this is over at oldlife.org. A couple of recent posts on neo- vs. paleo-reformed might be of use.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-12919830719810492502009-03-06T13:15:00.000-05:002009-03-06T13:15:00.000-05:00OK, well, I think I've said all that I have to say...OK, well, I think I've said all that I have to say re: my experience with 2k.<BR/><BR/>I would like for you to have the space to exposit W2K, but in order to do so, you'll need to give me an e-mail address so that I can invite you as an author.<BR/><BR/>Or alternatively, you could post it below and I can move the text over to part 2.<BR/><BR/>JRCJeff Caglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-81045060965565640712009-03-06T06:04:00.000-05:002009-03-06T06:04:00.000-05:00Jeff: Frame's idea that all of life is worship, wi...Jeff: Frame's idea that all of life is worship, with its application of disregarding the limits of the regulative principle, does make me wonder about how insightful his ethics are. <BR/><BR/>Be that as it may, I'm still not sure what any of this means for 2k arguments. You are uncomfortable with it because it seems not to tell FDA administrators or other govt. officials what to do. I assume part of your instruction is to tell them to be ethical. I don't see how that is at variance with 2k thinking necessarily. At the same time, as a respecter of vocations, I'm not sure I'd tell and FDA administrator any more than a plumber how to work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-32574199363087783872009-03-05T08:38:00.000-05:002009-03-05T08:38:00.000-05:00DGH: I also find it odd that you, who seems to val...DGH: <I>I also find it odd that you, who seems to value John Frame's work, don't see some tension between Frame's views on worship (which is explicitly about glorifying God) and his disregard for the regulative principle of worship (which comes directly from the Law, as in the Second Commandment).</I><BR/><BR/>You're making an unwarranted assumption here. Appreciation of Frame does not entail blanket acceptance of all his views.<BR/><BR/>Contrapositively, Frame's (perceived?) errors on worship do not nullify his helpful work in other areas. If the test for usability is perfection, then we should burn all our theology books.<BR/><BR/>DGH: <I>So to put a point on this, say you're right that using copper or PVC may have motives at stake, the 2k argument wonders if the authority of the church extends to judging whether PVC or copper should be used, and even to whether a session should be questioning a plumbers motives.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you're right to draw a line here. Notice that I've connected the practice of ethics together with a broad understanding of freedom. I think we might be able to find some common ground here:<BR/><BR/>While my conscience is not free to disregard context; nevertheless, my conscience *is* free from the commandments of men (not derived from good and necessary consequence, yada yada).<BR/><BR/>So it may be the case we could simultaneously affirm that "copper or PVC?" could be a moral question, under certain circumstances, and yet a question not subject to Sessional scrutiny. <BR/><BR/>Unless ... the practice of using copper (somehow?!) morphed into an issue of public sin.<BR/><BR/>JRCJeff Caglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-28165007968576513232009-03-05T07:33:00.000-05:002009-03-05T07:33:00.000-05:00Jeff, I'm not sure where this line of exchange is ...Jeff, I'm not sure where this line of exchange is going. I personally think that ethics is only part of glorifying God. I also find it odd that you, who seems to value John Frame's work, don't see some tension between Frame's views on worship (which is explicitly about glorifying God) and his disregard for the regulative principle of worship (which comes directly from the Law, as in the Second Commandment). I am also struck that your construction of ethics is overly concerned with motives - at times that may be fine, but it can breed the sort of introspection that I find suffocating among experimental Calvinists. <BR/><BR/>Be that as it may, I don't think we are going to resolve ethics, nor am I sure how it relates to your objections to 2k thinking. <BR/><BR/>So to put a point on this, say you're right that using copper or PVC may have motives at stake, the 2k argument wonders if the authority of the church extends to judging whether PVC or copper should be used, and even to whether a session should be questioning a plumbers motives. I also wonder if the state should engage in such inquiry. But the point of 2k is to recognize that the authority of the church is limited to its members and their spiritual lives, and the state is limited to its members and their civil lives. In other words, 2k is not about morality, it's about power. Who has it? How far does it go? Whose jurisdiction is it? I don't see the church having jurisdiction over plumnbing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-18335874149667263732009-03-04T23:23:00.000-05:002009-03-04T23:23:00.000-05:00DGH: I can't help but think that life and its many...DGH: <I>I can't help but think that life and its many situations is more than ethics or morality. Do I watch a movie tonight or read a book? Is that a moral question? Do I pass legislation that outlaws smoking in public spaces or do I propose fiscal policy to increase tobacco production? These are questions that looking at life from an ethical perspective exclusively trips over.</I><BR/><BR/>I wonder whether we are using the word "ethical" in the same way.<BR/><BR/>For certainly, we would agree with the Scripture:<BR/><BR/><I>So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. -- <B>1 Cor 10.31</B>.</I> <BR/><BR/>So from this perspective, we would agree, I hope, that our entire life is bound up in glorifying God; to be more specific, we are in all ways to love God and love neighbor.<BR/><BR/>So using "ethics" as I do to mean "what we ought to do", then all of life is governed by a principle of what we ought to do: to glorify God in whatever we do.<BR/><BR/>But perhaps you mean "ethics" in a different sense. Perhaps you use the word to mean "specified by law." If so, then I would agree with you. In fact, many issues are left unspecified by Scripture so that the believer has freedom with regard to those issues.<BR/><BR/>DGH: <I>I'm still having trouble knowing why the use of copper [or] PVC is a moral question. </I><BR/><BR/>Well, if we focus solely on the copper/PVC issue, and the fact that Scripture is devoid of commands regarding copper or PVC, and if we take what I think is your definition of ethics, then I agree: there is no moral question.<BR/><BR/>But such a position is drastically incomplete. The choice of piping occurs within a context: situation and motive. It is not the copper pipe <I>simpliciter</I> that (possibly) entangles ethical questions, but the context in which the choice is made.<BR/><BR/>For example, if building code requires copper pipe in your situation, then using PVC would be flouting the authority of the magistrate.<BR/><BR/>And so it goes with all of our choices in life: if we focus on the mere, bare action, then it's hard to see that anything at all is at stake. But when we place the action within a context (as they always are), then ethical issues <I>may</I> pop up in surprising ways. Sometimes they don't, of course. But more often, we are oblivious to the issues at stake.<BR/><BR/>Walking past a man is not a sin; but the priest in the parable of the Good Samaritan was certainly sinning. Why? Because he was oblivious to the needs of his neighbor -- to the ethical obligations entailed by his situation.<BR/><BR/>So: is it a moral question, whether to read a book or watch a movie? That depends: what book? what movie? With whom? Why?<BR/><BR/>Consider some of the great the passages on Christian liberty:<BR/><BR/><I>"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.<BR/><BR/>Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."<BR/><BR/>If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake - the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?<BR/><BR/>So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. -- <B>Rom 14</B></I><BR/><BR/><I>You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.<BR/>Life by the Spirit. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. -- <B>Gal 5</B></I><BR/><BR/>Our freedom is real. It is freedom from the curse of the law; freedom from slavery to the sin nature; freedom from judgment by other men (Rom 14.4).<BR/><BR/>But it is not freedom to decouple our choices from their contexts, so that we ignore the needs of our neighbor or the commands of God as we choose PVC or copper. Rather, such choices are made by faith, relying on wisdom from God, with the goals of loving God and neighbor.<BR/><BR/>All of life *is* ethical -- it's just not spelled out in the Law.<BR/><BR/>Final thought: You asked,<BR/><BR/><I>Do I pass legislation that outlaws smoking in public spaces or do I propose fiscal policy to increase tobacco production?</I><BR/><BR/>In asking the question, you are asking for ethical advice: <I>what should I do?</I> By definition, this *is* an ethical issue!<BR/><BR/>JRCJeff Caglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-69473322430877600292009-03-04T22:36:00.000-05:002009-03-04T22:36:00.000-05:00Dr. Hart, in order to give you space for the expos...Dr. Hart, in order to give you space for the exposition of W2K, I'll need to invite you to be an author (temporarily). To do that, I need an e-mail address.<BR/><BR/>JRCJeff Caglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-78158192908546273312009-03-04T09:25:00.000-05:002009-03-04T09:25:00.000-05:00Yes, Dr. Muether had us read "Christianity and Lib...Yes, Dr. Muether had us read "Christianity and Liberalism." I found it a concise and far-reaching critique. He was certainly a man ahead of his time.<BR/><BR/>JRCJeff Caglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-37299460741506668092009-03-04T07:14:00.000-05:002009-03-04T07:14:00.000-05:00Jeff,Background for background. My encounter with...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>Background for background. My encounter with 2k thinking -- actually the spirituality of the church -- came when reading Machen while a student at Harvard Divinity School. His combination of theology and politics struck me as bizarre initially. How could anyone oppose prayer and Bible reading in public schools? And then when you remember the public school is not bound by the same norms as the church it made perfect and Christian sense. In fact, I continue to think that Machen is far more relevant for our times than Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Owen and maybe even Kuyper because he was as well versed in American politics as he was in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>Being well versed in both seems to me to be key to being a citizen. Many Christians seem to think that because they are followers of Christ and have a higher loyalty to him, they have trump cards in public life and don't need to pay attention to things like the Constitution, state laws, or rules for Senate debate. Or if they become aware of the American polity, they feel compelled to justify that polity as ultimately biblical. Republicanism and federalism are not biblical forms of politics. Either monarchy or presbyterianism is. So the spirituality of the church is an effort to recognize the difference between church authority and state authority. Just because the Bible tells me to turn the other cheek, as an executioner for the state I have an obligation not to turn the other cheek. (The Anabaptist solution, to its credit, refuses holding the office of executioner.)<BR/><BR/>One more thought: on your appeals to the eight commandment and plumbing or taxes, I can't help but think that life and its many situations is more than ethics or morality. Do I watch a movie tonight or read a book? Is that a moral question? Do I pass legislation that outlaws smoking in public spaces or do I propose fiscal policy to increase tobacco production? These are questions that looking at life from an ethical perspective exclusively trips over. <BR/><BR/>I'm still having trouble knowing why the use of copper of PVC is a moral question. But the greatest objections to 2k seem to come from those who want all of life's issues to be moral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3116489801410156625.post-22359419075484095902009-03-04T01:27:00.000-05:002009-03-04T01:27:00.000-05:00DGH, feel free to comment here on anything you wis...DGH, feel free to comment here on anything you wish. I'll try to set up a "part 2" that you can edit to allow you to give an exposition of W2K in whatever manner you see fit.<BR/><BR/>JRCJeff Caglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327772299274394046noreply@blogger.com